International News Israel Palestine conflict

Golden Dr Otto said:
I apologize unreservedly to everyone else that I’m even rising to this. I made my point very clearly. It doesn’t need adding to.

The fact that you’ve responded with inarticulate anger and repetition doesn’t require me to respond further.

For the record i studied this as part of my degree which was in politics and international relations from a relatively decent institution. And I travelled extensively through the Palestinian Territories. I’m politically neutral when it comes to apportioning blame. But I will raise my eyebrows on here when I see absurd radical subjective statements.
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Well done on your education.
Not really sure which absurd radical statement I made. Everything that I said is freely available here, in mainstream news ( maybe not in the states) I haven’t at any point suggested that this is Israel’s fault. If I’m mistaken in any of the facts I laid out please direct me properly. I am open to debate what I have written. If you disagree so fervently with me why not properly debate it?
Was I wrong in my understanding of how long did it take the IDF to respond on October 7th ? Should we not question how Hamas got over the boarder in such an organised fashion? Have I misunderstood the position of the prime minister and the government of Israel? Is it not an ultra right wing coalition? Did the prime minister of Israel not have a lot of allegations against him?
What were the factors for the strike on Israel from the Iranians?

At no point have I sided with Hamas and iran on anything. What they did was evil and the way that they have treated their own people is equally disgusting. Because I believe that one side in this slaughter is diabolical doesn’t mean that the other ( Israel) is coming out of it looking good.


I’m asking for a debate. You suggesting that somehow you’ve responded ( you didn’t you just went down the “ignore him he’s stupid wrong and somehow racist/ anti semitic” route)

I mean you could just do the I’m with stupid and a couple of emojis if you like.
 
MustardYellow said:
Most interesting part of all that is this: 'That phrase hinted that Hamas might be contemplating the end of its armed struggle, although no further details were provided.'

Seems like the logical thing to do. They will never beat Israel.
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They likely won't beat Israel, but if Netanyahu goes I have hope there could be a leader in Israel who understands the complexity of this and doesn't put global security at risk.

I accept Israel should be able to defend itself, but there should be lines drawn in the sand.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
They likely won't beat Israel, but if Netanyahu goes I have hope there could be a leader in Israel who understands the complexity of this and doesn't put global security at risk.

I accept Israel should be able to defend itself, but there should be lines drawn in the sand.
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Hamas disarming is probably the only realistic way forward imo. They could never beat Israel, they're fighting a losing war. It's like being upset with something the England rugby team did in the pub so trying to take the whole squad on - it's only a matter of time till you're left battered!

Israel will be much more likely to give aid, concessions, and maybe eventually even increased trade possibilities to a disarmed Gaza. It also obviously massively reduces the risk of future conflict.
 
Hamas will never end their armed struggle for very long..
They won power by affirming Palestinians the right to armed struggle against Israel.
In 2014 there were 9 ceasefires, everyone was breached.

The whole affair is mired in "rinse & repeat" over decades.

It makes you wonder if the best way out of it is for the world to turn its back on both sides then go back in 10 years and see what`s left.
 
MustardYellow said:
Hamas disarming is probably the only realistic way forward imo. They could never beat Israel, they're fighting a losing war. It's like being upset with something the England rugby team did in the pub so trying to take the whole squad on - it's only a matter of time till you're left battered!

Israel will be much more likely to give aid, concessions, and maybe eventually even increased trade possibilities to a disarmed Gaza. It also obviously massively reduces the risk of future conflict.
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If the thing you're upset about is decades of them murdering and raping your family and stealing your house
 
MustardYellow said:
Hamas disarming is probably the only realistic way forward imo. They could never beat Israel, they're fighting a losing war. It's like being upset with something the England rugby team did in the pub so trying to take the whole squad on - it's only a matter of time till you're left battered!

Israel will be much more likely to give aid, concessions, and maybe eventually even increased trade possibilities to a disarmed Gaza. It also obviously massively reduces the risk of future conflict.
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Don't be so sure, just look at what they are doing in the West Bank such as:

- the Israeli state stealing land as they did recently
- Directly funding/military & police support for settlers to steal land,
- Imprisoning 000s of Palestinians without charge or putting them through a military court where they have no rights/representation and it has an impossible 99% conviction rate.
- torture of those Palestinian detainees
- removal of rights for Palestinians in general


And settler groups have already started parcelling areas of Gaza amongst Israelis. This wouldn't be a problem as it could be pie in the sky planning except members of the Israeli Govt have apparently been working with those groups on this according to the same settler groups.
 
Mojofilter said:
If the thing you're upset about is decades of them murdering and raping your family and stealing your house
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Marked Ox said:
Don't be so sure, just look at what they are doing in the West Bank such as:

- the Israeli state stealing land as they did recently
- Directly funding/military & police support for settlers to steal land,
- Imprisoning 000s of Palestinians without charge or putting them through a military court where they have no rights/representation and it has an impossible 99% conviction rate.
- torture of those Palestinian detainees
- removal of rights for Palestinians in general


And settler groups have already started parcelling areas of Gaza amongst Israelis. This wouldn't be a problem as it could be pie in the sky planning except members of the Israeli Govt have apparently been working with those groups on this according to the same settler groups.
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That`s about it............. reasons there will never be peace in the region.
Every death, whichever side, breeds the next generation to hate those they see as the enemy.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
They likely won't beat Israel, but if Netanyahu goes I have hope there could be a leader in Israel who understands the complexity of this and doesn't put global security at risk.

I accept Israel should be able to defend itself, but there should be lines drawn in the sand.
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A very apt phrase! It’s this kind of thing that got the world in this mess in the first few place.

This is an exceptionally good read on the subject.

 
Marked Ox said:
Don't be so sure, just look at what they are doing in the West Bank such as:

- the Israeli state stealing land as they did recently
- Directly funding/military & police support for settlers to steal land,
- Imprisoning 000s of Palestinians without charge or putting them through a military court where they have no rights/representation and it has an impossible 99% conviction rate.
- torture of those Palestinian detainees
- removal of rights for Palestinians in general


And settler groups have already started parcelling areas of Gaza amongst Israelis. This wouldn't be a problem as it could be pie in the sky planning except members of the Israeli Govt have apparently been working with those groups on this according to the same settler groups.
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The difference between Gaza and the West Bank is Gaza is fully governed by Hamas. The PA in the West Bank are largely just responsible for administrative duties, Israel still has security authority. I believe around 60% of the West Bank is still under full Israeli civil and military control.

It's obviously no guarantee (nothing ever is), but if Hamas disarm there's a potential for less conflict and more concessions in Gaza.
 
MustardYellow said:
The difference between Gaza and the West Bank is Gaza is fully governed by Hamas. The PA in the West Bank are largely just responsible for administrative duties, Israel still has security authority. I believe around 60% of the West Bank is still under full Israeli civil and military control.

It's obviously no guarantee (nothing ever is), but if Hamas disarm there's a potential for less conflict and more concessions in Gaza.
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There is no justification for the "settlements" in the West Bank that I can see. It was always going to encourage violent fightback from the other side.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
There is no justification for the "settlements" in the West Bank that I can see. It was always going to encourage violent fightback from the other side.
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I agree. The idea that the PA control the West Bank is true in theory (for some parts), but Israel still has authority. It's more control in theory than practice.

The PA are a bit dodgy themselves, though. A lot of people don't know about the 'Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund', which in essence pays families who have committed violence against Israel/Israelis.

The glimmer of light in Gaza is that it has been fully governed by Hamas. If Israel withdraw and Hamas disarm, there's the potential for longer term peace and Gaza to exist as a completely separate entity. I doubt Israel will ever 'help' Hamas, but if agreements can be found where both parties benefit from increased movement/trade in and out of Gaza alongside the disarmament of Hamas, then it could be a more hopeful future for all.
 
MustardYellow said:
I agree. The idea that the PA control the West Bank is true in theory (for some parts), but Israel still has authority. It's more control in theory than practice.

The PA are a bit dodgy themselves, though. A lot of people don't know about the 'Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund', which in essence pays families who have committed violence against Israel/Israelis.

The glimmer of light in Gaza is that it has been fully governed by Hamas. If Israel withdraw and Hamas disarm, there's the potential for longer term peace and Gaza to exist as a completely separate entity. I doubt Israel will ever 'help' Hamas, but if agreements can be found where both parties benefit from increased movement/trade in and out of Gaza alongside the disarmament of Hamas, then it could be a more hopeful future for all.
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Democracy is so important (I don't say that in a "let's go and 'civilise' non-democratic countries" way). Netanyahu seems cut from the same cloth as Putin. Will he be willing to ever give up his grip on power?

Look at Russia, no free and fair elections, the most brutal rise to the top. A lot of the problems we have in the UK are related to the two-party system and technocracy.

Democracy isn't perfect but when you don't have it brutality seems to inevitably ensue.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
Democracy is so important (I don't say that in a "let's go and 'civilise' non-democratic countries" way). Netanyahu seems cut from the same cloth as Putin. Will he be willing to ever give up his grip on power?

Look at Russia, no free and fair elections, the most brutal rise to the top. A lot of the problems we have in the UK are related to the two-party system and technocracy.

Democracy isn't perfect but when you don't have it brutality seems to inevitably ensue.
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To be honest, I don't know much about the political structure of Israel or much about those in power there!

I think part of the issue with democracy as it is now is it's a democracy of sorts. Yes we have elections, rare referendums etc, but beyond that we have no say in anything. Whenever I say this the argument I get back is always 'well you had a say when you voted for a party and their policies', but what happens when we elect a party based on said policies and they either change them or go back on them all together? Well, nothing. Politicians are allowed to mislead their way into governance, then have 5 years of largely doing what they want - we've seen this with the Tories the last few years.
 
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